Season 6, Episode 12
This week on 20 Minute Takes, Nikki talks with Rev. Janna Louie, co-founder of the Coalition for Asian American and Pacific Islander Churches (CAAPIC). In this episode, they discuss the complex historical dynamics that affect Asian American/Pacific Islander (AAPI) voters, and the work that CAAPIC does to encourage AAPI Christians to show up as engaged citizens who participate robustly in the democratic process here in the United States. In a presidential election year, when the AAPI vote is arguably the most significant swing vote, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.
You can learn more about CAAPIC and access their resources here.
20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action
Host: Nikki Toyama-Szeto
Edited & Produced by: David de Leon
Music: Andre Henry
Transcript
[00:00:00] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hello, this is Nikki Toyama-Szeto, Executive Director of Christians for Social Action, and your host for today’s episode of 20 Minute Takes. Today, I speak with Reverend Janna Louie. She’s the co-founder of the Coalition for Asian American and Pacific Islander Churches, and they’re doing fantastic and interesting work at the intersection of faith, justice, and politics.
We talk about both the opportunities and the limitations that Asian American Christians face as they’re trying to engage in politics in the US as well as what it means to honor our histories and activate our faith in the places where we find ourselves today. Join us for this episode of 20 Minute Takes.
Rev. Janna Louie, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of 20 Minute Takes.
[00:01:13] Janna Louie: Thank you. It’s such a privilege to be here with you.
[00:01:16] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Before we get into this conversation about Asian Americans, about political discipleship and showing up in the public space, I was hoping that you might be able to settle a debate that my family is having specifically about Bokashi: fact or fiction?
[00:01:39] Janna Louie: Oh, 100 percent fact.
[00:01:42] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: For our listeners, what is Bokashi?
[00:01:45] Janna Louie: Bokashi is a composting method that uses fermentation. It kind of actually goes back to Japan and maybe Korea and some of our other Asian American motherlands, and it allows you to compost all food scraps… so that means dairy, bones, you name it, everything goes in. And it basically uses fermentation to make your food scraps all become really rich soil.
[00:02:12] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So Janna was one of the first people to introduce me to this concept, and the reveal videos are very like—you put in eggs and banana peels, and presto, six weeks later, you have amazing dirt, and my family’s pretty convinced that it’s just a scam to get you to buy the Bokashi seasoning thing. But thank you for settling that question for us that it actually is fact.
[00:02:39] Janna Louie: So just adding to that, I actually don’t even buy it. I make my own and it works. So just to settle that, you know, another tidbit for you there. It does work. It’s great for the earth. Yeah, it’s pretty great because, you know, you’re taking California dirt, like dry dirt, and then desert dirt, and there are like earthworms coming out from it. I don’t even know where they will go and if there’s enough nutrients, but the Bokashi gives them enough nutrients, so yes.
[00:03:08] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Well, great. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. And that’s the end of our episode. No, I’m kidding.
[00:03:12] Janna Louie: Perfect.
[00:03:13] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: We’re having you on because you are the co founder and one of the conveners for the Coalition for Asian American and Pacific Islander Churches. I wonder if you could tell us just a little bit about what was the impetus, what was the spark for CAAPIC’s work?
[00:03:29] Janna Louie: Yeah, that’s a great question. I actually would say that I don’t think many of us were looking towards it, but a couple factors came to play. One is actually a couple other co-founders said, “You know, there’s the natural Latino evangelical coalition. There’s a lot of Black church coalitions. And historically, there have been National Council of Churches, and just strong church coalitions that moved and paved the way for a lot of change, right?”
The civil rights movement, voting rights, all that is actually connected to a lot of mainline church coalitions. That was a big part. John Compton’s book talks about this and the role of churches in that. And so the question initially was, well, is there a network like that for Asian American Pacific Islander churches?
And so, looking around, we didn’t really see that. So we started to ask the question, why is that? And then also, as you look at Asian American and Pacific Islander motherland places, you begin to realize that actually the political theology and this engagement with the church and society has always been a part of the DNA.
And so then it was like, well, what happened? And what does it look like for us to not necessarily reclaim, but have a way for us to have that sort of public witness that we know is important in this time and place. And then I would say the last piece is also just that we wanted to see it done differently, because sometimes with both church places and politics we saw this kind of bee-lining to power and even maybe one standard person up top, but we realized some of the assets in our community is this collective understanding of who we are.
And it’s also complicated, right? As Asian Americans—because we’re Japanese American, Hong Kong Americans, Samoan, and there are different ways to see that. So what does it look like to actually see our collective political power? And so we also modeled it after different movements, like the Hong Kong protests.
So one of our values is loving neighbor, but also that we’re a leader-ful movement so that there’s not one person you would see up top as a person who dictates where it goes. It’s sort of “be water,” where you can ebb and flow with what the context and society needs, and it’s leader-ful, so everybody’s a leader in the movement and yet we’re kind of moving to what is needed and required at this time and place.
[00:05:52] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Great. So it sounds like you all recognized somewhat of a gap in the landscape, and then this coalition CAAPIC stepped into that and wanted to show up in this faith-slash-civic-discipleship-slash-political engagement space—you all wanted to show up in a way that really reflected the Asian American community and its heritage.
[00:06:14] Janna Louie: Yeah, that’s right. I even reflect on some pieces, some slogans, because I’m a daughter of immigrants from Hong Kong and Philippines. And one of the slogans that went around at that time was—the translation of it is similar to, “I was not born to be valiant,” because this is what is required of us in terms of our witness and who we are.
And I think some of the sentiment is, as people who follow Jesus, as people who are looking at our society and where we are, that this is kind of what’s required of us. So we’re not trying to edge our way to power or anything. This is just what it means to be faithful.
And how do we respond to that?
[00:06:54] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I love that. I know one of the things that you all are engaged with is around Asian American Christians and casting voting as part of a Christian expression. What are some of the complexities that you are finding around getting Asian American Christians to vote?
[00:07:14] Janna Louie: Well, as you know, Nikki, this is one of the projects we’ve worked on to get out the vote, and it has helped us learn more but it also taps into some of our learning. One of the last videos we released was actually a conversation between a Burmese American clergy person and a lay person who was born in the internment camps.
And so two very different places within Asian Americans and thinking about civic engagement. And one of the themes that we have thought about or wondered about is as we’ve seen our migration patterns, as we honor our migration patterns, we notice that there have always been political, social, and economic implications.
And then within the generations, depending on what has happened in our racialized realities in the US, that kind of impacts how our communities respond, both to policies and then even how we talk with each other, how we understand our faith, and those pieces. And that’s pretty complex.
And it’s also important to honor our communities and not just judge them or be sidelined to very (I wouldn’t even say just partisan) divisive ways of understanding, because I would say when you think and talk to people who are really engaged in the motherlands, there’s actually a pretty deep sense of class because of the economic and politics.
[00:08:38] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Like separation by class?
[00:08:40] Janna Louie: …Yes, separation by class and an understanding of how that plays out in politics, but then one of the dynamics I realized is when people came here, whether refugees or immigrants, it was sort of survival.
[00:08:54] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, that’s true. A flattening of that…
[00:08:56] Janna Louie: Yeah, and there’s not an understanding or interpretation of power as it relates to religion and race. So, for example, when I talk to certain people, I’ll refer to my Burmese American clergy colleagues. They’ve referred to how they came from an authoritarian regime, and their people are still experiencing this. So they understand actually the fusing of religion and politics, economics, right?
And how painful it is for our society, right? And at the same time, they’re used to authoritarian governments. And so when you come all of a sudden into a democratic government, who does the translation work of how you’re supposed to participate in government? So that’s one level. The second level is, most countries in Asia do not either have religious liberty or are not Christian majority.
Most of them. And so when you come to the United States, you become a racial minority. But then if you’re of Christian faith, you become a religious majority. And so the access to our systems in the US actually comes through religion versus race or ethnicity, and that power shift is a tricky thing.
[00:10:08] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah. Some things push you down. Other things are lifting you up. And it’s kind of like, which track am I on? Which path do I go? Oh, I see. Okay. Oh, interesting. That’s fascinating. Have you noticed anything related to folks who are coming from, say, a Filipino context or a context that’s mostly Catholic? Do you see some of these same tensions or are those playing out differently as they think about their faith and how they relate to government or politics?
[00:10:36] Janna Louie: Yeah, certainly I think that’s where again, there’s multiple layers, because in a lot of Filipino communities, there’s actually a deep history of activism. I mean, even in our country with labor movements and different pieces. And so again, that’s where I would say there’s layers of the race pieces in the US of religion and politics and class. I have found that if you talk about class—because there’s such clear delineations from different motherlands—it’s actually an easier connecting point or translation. So sometimes in civic engagement spaces that are not faith spaces, they talk a lot about translation, but I think there also needs to be a different type of translation that’s more like translating the systems and the culture of how to participate in democracy. That needs to happen. And so, yes, I would say there’s definitely particularities in different API communities that both draw from our resources and our history, in the US but also in our motherlands.
[00:11:33] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Okay. So let me see if I’m understanding this. If I can reflect a little bit back to you, it sounds like if folks’ reference points is something about how they engage with politics in their motherland, even if that’s many generations back, that’s still a live reference point for them.
And that a lot of times what is defined in that place is actually more—what economic or social class you are in may define how it is that you engage publicly, and that is some of the work that you are having to unpack for Asian Americans, because some of those boundaries are not quite so clear. Am I understanding that? Or correct what I might have off?
[00:12:19] Janna Louie: No, I think you just said it more concisely and more beautifully. I mean, practically speaking, I would say, yes, the histories are access points, and there’s a lot of work to be done for us to even connect the dots to that. Because, you know, as Asian Americans, we’re trying to figure out our history here, but also trying to access gifts and resources, and our motherlands are constantly changing.
So there are cultural pieces that are power pieces. But I think it’s really about power dynamics and how you understand it. I would say the economic power dynamics are sometimes more accessible for certain generations.
I think if you look at second, third, fourth generation Asian Americans here in the US, the race pieces on the surface level feel more palpable. Right? And so what I’m saying is, we probably have to figure out those connecting points more to be able to better listen and understand, because what I don’t find works well with Asian American Christian communities is just telling people what to do.
But more so, how do we listen and honor our stories so that we can activate the gifts that are already there and also resource our communities? So that we can be a part of the beloved community here.
[00:13:29] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, I love that. I love that. That’s really helpful. Some of the work that you’re doing with CAAPIC—does it connect with your own personal story?
[00:13:38] Janna Louie: Absolutely. I think some of it is just how do I honor where I came from and honor my community? So maybe one way I’ll say it is this: I think one of the A fellowship that was afforded after graduating from seminary allowed me to study sociopolitical engagement through preaching in context without religious liberty.
I know it’s a mouthful, but part of it is because, first of all, I wasn’t trying to preach. I’d never wanted to preach. I still usually don’t. But I was given this fellowship, and I stood on the shoulders of many Asian American women and also a lot of Black women from the US, so I wanted to say something that would honor that and also benefit the whole instead of just the individual. And so when I thought about the US I thought, well, the biggest piece is race in terms of systems, but race isn’t easily translatable around the world. And so I really thought, oh, this is really socio- political engagement, and then to locate myself as a US citizen, it was to study in context without religious liberty. And so actually part of what happened there is I asked people in the global South and East, where would you study and learn from? Multiple people said, go study in Malaysia. So I ended up in Southeast Asia, and that’s where I actually saw the importance of religious freedom and also separation of church and state.
And how we show up as faith communities is really important. I started to think about these different power dynamics. In my own story, it has involved thinking about what it looks like to honor where we came from, honor collective power and action and also, use and access what we’re afforded. The rights and privileges that we get, I have a really complicated relationship with, because of some of these dynamics. But yeah, that certainly propelled me then to think about, as a faith community and a Christian faith community, what does it look like to steward power?
What does it look like to share power for the purposes of being a faithful witness?
[00:15:46] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Fantastic. Are there any theological concepts that guide and help you know how to move forward as you’re trying to steward power well, as you’re trying to honor and respect some of the stories that you’re a part of?
[00:16:06] Janna Louie: Oh, probably many. I’ll say as an American Baptist, one of the core pieces for me is soul liberty, which means that we believe in the right of anyone to interpret the text how they would before God and also the responsibility to interpret it well and to steward that well, which very clearly leads me to the value of separation of church and state.
That really no faith community should have the right to dictate how anybody else expresses itself. For me, that is a pretty core piece to how we understand democracy. Because healthy democracy means that we have disagreement. Healthy democracy means that we bring different thoughts and perspectives to the table so that we can consider what a good and whole society is for all of us.
I would say also mutuality through the cross. That’s also a key piece. How do you think about not just solidarity with mutuality and partnership and leveling different power dynamics and collective power versus just one sole person kind of going for it.
[00:17:13] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And how would you specify the difference between mutuality and solidarity? Can you help us understand the distinction you’re trying to make there?
[00:17:24] Janna Louie: Yeah, I think sometimes I see solidarity as standing with, but mutuality is more sharing a partnership, which means it’s not just one side giving or taking. It’s actually more dialogical in different ways, and shared.
[00:17:41] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah. Kind of interdependent. Right? Recognizing it’s not just like, “Oh, I’m going to stand with you so you get more,” but recognizing, “Oh no, no, no, actually when this is broken for you, it’s also broken for me. And so we’re mutually affected by what’s happening.” Oh, that’s great. As you are looking across CAAPIC and the different city sites in Chicago, New York, and Los Angeles, what are some of the things, the projects, the research that CAAPIC is doing that really gets you very excited or fuels your hope?
[00:18:13] Janna Louie: That’s such a beautiful question. I think one of the things that we really hoped for when we started was that it would be a ground-up sort of thing. That fits into that be water and leader-ful. And it’s also because we know all of our different localities and our local communities are really different. And so we really wanted it to be activated by our communities, for our community’s needs and for the good of our community as a whole.
I think some of us also in the beginning saw the differences, and one of the questions was where are the Asian American voices? I would say, it’s not that we didn’t exist. It’s just that the networks didn’t exist for us to move forward. We really see it that way, which means that each of our different chapters takes a different flavor, because of the people involved and how the city is structured.
Chicago takes a different flavor for that reason, or our Hmong community in Minnesota and Wisconsin looks very different from Los Angeles. And so a lot of it has been us coming together to think about when there is reason for us to come together as a national network.
We’ll do that because we do recognize our political system needs numbers for lack of a better way of thinking about that. But we really do also think we need to be attentive to the needs locally. We’ve also supported each other in different ways and we have an educational arm that has brought together Asian American academics that actually started about eight years ago, thinking about Asian American racial identity, Christian faith, and politics.
And so part of what we are striving for is to have the conversations that deepen our community’s understanding and centers our communities that are beyond the news headlines. Because we realized that it’s not just about telling our communities what to do. That feels a little bit patronizing.
But the idea was to have educational resources and invite our communities into conversation in a way that dignifies our communities, the diversity of our communities, and also to activate us to care for the world around us.
[00:20:18] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I love that. That’s fantastic. Tell me a little bit about the Get Out the Vote videos. What was the idea behind it, and why did you take the approach that you took?
[00:20:29] Janna Louie: Well, you know, admittedly, some of us, were just really worried about the elections. But we’re grateful that APARRI actually gave us a partial grant to facilitate forums. And we used some of it to convene a conversation around Asian Americans and Christian nationalism.
So we’d already used it, and we were gonna convene another forum, which is what we had been used to doing— creating forums where we have dialogue and discussion, again, not telling them what to do, but so that people can be stirred in their imagination to be faithful in this world.
That’s always been the heart behind it. But we really realized the moment and what’s needed. And even as we were looking at the data, Jerry Park does a lot of that and argues that Asian American Christians are arguably the key swing vote for this election, they have been, and also we have the least amount of voter outreach.
[00:21:24] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes, least engaged meaning engagement coming externally. Yes. And also the fastest growing electorate.
[00:21:31] Janna Louie: Yes, exactly. All of those pieces, Janelle Wong does a lot of data on those pieces, the Asian Americans in particular. And so those just seem like a really key opportunity, and because we’ve been having conversations for eight years, we knew it was a little bit more complex. And we also know that it’s a different political climate.
So people are really triggered by conversations that happen. And it actually was really hard for us to listen, right? These were within families, within church communities. So even Cross Section, we started because academics said, we don’t have a place to talk about this in our families or in our churches.
And so we knew that lack of conversation was an issue. So we said, well, people are on social media. And we also looked at the misinformation and disinformation happening. And we knew our parents were on WhatsApp or Cacao or Line, all these different places, and that’s how a lot of information would be spread.
And so the idea was to capture more nuanced stories of the disagreements and the differences in our communities, put them in dialogue, make it digestible, because we know no one’s going to watch something over two minutes. And then, capture a conversation and have them maybe move to a toolkit that would give people a reason to engage as Asian American Christians.
So there’s a lot of things. We basically tried to capture some videos, then there are hour to 90 minute conversations that we edited down to. We had a great video editing, producing, and editing team that edited to about two minutes to capture one element of the conversation.
[00:23:08] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Love the conversations. They’re great. They’re gems.
[00:23:11] Janna Louie: We were really hoping that it would show differences and perspectives and honor our different stories. And so there’s different pieces to it. We actually did about, I think, five or six interviews and we got down to three. We might release more, and one we paired with a toolkit, and the toolkit has three parts.
One is Christian faith and voting or theology of voting, that sort of thing. Two is healing in our communities, healing with ourselves. Our families, and even understanding our trauma, from our migration narratives. So how do we have hope for healing? And the third piece is how do we engage in democracy moving forward?
So both with voting plans, but also after the elections, how do we actually participate in democracy and make it a little bit digestible?
[00:23:56] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, I love that. That’s fantastic. And then one of your other groups is doing another great program.
[00:24:03] Janna Louie: So CAAPIC Chicago is running an Asian American young adult cohort to try to help develop principles of community organizing and will actually allow them, through the grant money, to try to organize their church communities. And so that has been a pretty great program facilitated by our Chicago chapter.
So it’s been open to our national network. They have Asian American young adults from across the US.
[00:24:28] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, that’s fantastic. I love it. Thank you so much, Janna, for what you and the team at CAAPIC are doing. I think it’s so great to see the way that you are holding space for this community to show up and also what a gift it is for the broader church. So thanks for what you’re doing.
[00:24:44] Janna Louie: Thank you. And we need to really say thank you to you and to Christians for Social Action for giving us a space and incubating and giving us an opportunity to be able to do this work because, the infrastructure and the foundation that you all have given us is enabling us to have an imagination and to think freely about that, which is a gift that I know not all are afforded.
And so thank you so much for your support.
[00:25:11] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, absolutely. Our honor, our privilege.
20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. We’re produced and edited by David de Leon. I’m your host, Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and the music is done by Andre Henry. You can find us on the web at ChristiansForSocialAction. org. Give us five stars, write a review, and share about the podcast with your friends.
