Season 6, Episode 9
This week, David de Leon interviews CSA Executive Director and 20 Minute Takes host Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Nikki shares what it looks like to lead a justice organization justly. She unpacks her organizational leadership theory anchored in intercession and gives advice for how new leaders might integrate their spirituality into their leadership practice.
Follow Nikki on Instagram, X (formerly Twitter).
20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action.
Host, Producer, Editor: David de Leon
Music: Andre Henry
Transcript
[00:00:00] David de Leon: Hi, my name David de Leon, and I’m usually the producer and editor of 20 Minute Takes. Welcome to this week’s episode. This week, we talk with the host of this podcast and the executive director of Christians for Social Action, Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Leading a Christian justice organization is a challenge, and Nikki helps us to think about what it means to lead a justice organization justly. She gives us a sense of her philosophy of organizational leadership and offers some excellent advice for how new leaders should lead. This is an episode you don’t want to miss.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto, welcome to your own podcast.
[00:01:01] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Thanks, David, for having me. I have to say it feels a little strange being on this side, but…
[00:01:06] David de Leon: I was gonna say, welcome to the other side. This is the first time that I’m getting a chance to interview you, and I’m very excited to do that. I’m gonna take a page out of your book, Nikki, and ask you a question about something that I’m curious about. I know that you—your reputation has preceded you, sort of in terms of your hospitality, the way that you cook and such.
Is there a recipe that you’ve tried recently for the first time? Or is there something that you’re like, “Oh man, I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to bust this out and flex these skills.” Is there anything, Nikki?
[00:01:41] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Okay, so you happen to get me on a cooking week. Because there are many weeks where I am very inhospitable to the people around me. But the fall is one of my favorite times to go to the farmer’s market. And one of my favorite vendors at the farmer’s market is the mushroom vendor. He has these mushrooms called maitake mushrooms. And they’re kind of new to me, so they’re really, really fun to cook. So a dish I tried yesterday is miso butter, maitake mushrooms. I’m not vegan, but it’s one of those dishes that has so much flavor, you could use it an entree.
I made up a batch of miso butter yesterday, and I’m a little bit trying to figure out Ooh, what else can I put this on? And then other ways to make these maitake mushrooms. So that’s kind of a latest fun thing I’m experimenting with.
[00:02:46] David de Leon: I love it. I love when life gives you enough space to just spend time in the kitchen. It is a holy place for me, and I’m sure it is one for you, so we’ll have to try your miso butter maitake mushrooms. Someday. Someday. One of the other ways that I’ve experienced your hospitality, Nikki, is by getting to work with CSA over the past… I think it’s coming on four years now.
I took a little break there, but it was definitely in the late spring, early summer of 2020. So I feel like I’ve gotten to watch you lead in different contexts. And what I’ve always told people about my time at CSA is that I think it’s one of the healthiest work environments I’ve ever been in.
I think a huge part of that is due to your leadership, and I’ve appreciated getting to see that up close. So we thought it’d be fun to bring you on and get a sense from you about what it looks like to lead a justice organization in a just way.
We know that organizations that are bound up in the mission that can be really intense sometimes, and it doesn’t automatically mean that a healthy culture is going to develop sort of in that organization.
[00:04:08] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: True.
[00:04:08] David de Leon: So, Nikki, in leading Christians for Social Action as the executive director so far, how have you sought to lead in a just way?
[00:04:24] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I feel like I have high hopes for Christian organizations and the cultures they create and hopefully the flourishing that happens within and also the meaningful work that they do. I think that that hope becomes even a little bit more magnified for Christian justice organizations, because the thing that they’re trying to bring about in the world–I hope that the ecosystems of their organizations would be the first taste of that.
I think of it as a thing of integrity.
[00:05:04] David de Leon: Hmm.
[00:05:04] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So do you pursue justice and then do you pursue justice in a just way? ‘Cause I do feel like that’s an accent mark for Christians, that it’s not just about getting a thing done, but who are we becoming in the midst of the pursuit of that thing?
So yeah, I think it’s really important for justice organizations to reflect on the experience of their teams in the pursuit of justice. Do the things that they to espouse and grow in their programs—maybe things about paying attention to gender dynamics or racial dynamics or socioeconomics or different levels of education that I think organizations are really, really good in program design—do they have a practice of self-reflection on the dynamics within their own organization?
Ultimately what I’m looking for is a place where people can feel fully engaged and can have a sense of flourishing and recognize the grace it is to participate in meaningful work with friends. Those are some things I think about; although they’re not my main philosophy, they’re definitely touch points that came from maybe convictions in other circumstances where I kind of thought, “Oh, if I have the ability to to make some decisions around that, I’m going to choose for this other thing for flourishing, for thriving, for folks on my team, all feeling like they’re equally welcome and have a voice.”
[00:06:35] David de Leon: I appreciate that, because I think as a leader, you’re recognizing that, in the words of my spiritual director wife, “Everything is formation.” Right? So seeing an organization that’s trying to effect change in the world, also having to be cognizant of the ways that staff meetings are formation, that planning processes are formation for one’s soul, for the integrity and the flourishing work that people get to participate in everything is formation.
I think that that’s a huge, crucial thing to recognize about that. You mentioned that that isn’t necessarily your main leadership philosophy. I’ve heard you in the past refer to your theory of organizational leadership as being intercessory. I’m curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that.
What does that mean? And how did you come to this theory, and how has it borne out over there this time serving as ED?
[00:07:41] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah, I think one of the things that I particularly feel like I bring to the leadership task–whether it’s a formal leadership role or an informal leadership role–is both an understanding of organizational strategy or the mechanics of how to get a large group of people moving towards a common goal as well as how to have a posture of listening and discernment.
I used to lead this large conference, and it really pulled on both of those sides of me, this ability to hang out with the intercessors and to be listening to what folks were hearing and discerning the invitation from God in a particular moment, as well as trying to build out enough organization and clarity so that many dispersed teams can work towards a common goal.
So I think there is something about living in that tension and helping those two to speak to each other that’s really, really important.
[00:08:44] David de Leon: What is it about that dynamic of intercession or prayer that feels so oppositional to what we think of as effective strategic leadership?
[00:08:56] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I do think that in nonprofit spaces, there’s this celebration of these rigorous processes, strategies, compelling vision, engagement, all that kind of stuff, which I think is really, really great. And it’s really, really helpful. It is very much, in most places that I’ve been, practiced as a very thinking and sometimes a portion of a heart process.
But as Christian leaders, the other component is that we are spiritually dependent upon God. And so there has to be a discernment component that is brought in. And I feel like a lot of the common models that we have don’t have super great integration of this spiritual discernment process. What does it mean to ask God, to inquire, to listen as a community of prayer, that sort of a thing?
So I think those are two different tensions. And to be honest, I feel like sometimes the one side is a little suspicious of the other, because the intercessory group can sometimes speak in language that feels like a bit of a power play: “God told us, or we heard from….” And then this other side, I think, has to have a healthy humility.
Let me tell you an anecdote that might fill out just a bit of this.
[00:10:15] David de Leon: Love anecdotes.
[00:10:17] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So, one of the things that I think happens, which I think is good, is that Christian organizations or programs try to do some future planning about what they’re doing. And one of the things that was a very shaping experience for me is that I was the leader of this very large event that happens every few years.
And so it gave us just a little bit of space to ask the question, “God, you have used this event, this conference, in a powerful way through the history of your church.” You know, people point back to, “Oh my goodness, I was so shaped and influenced [by that event].” But we also wanted to have this posture or the category that just because God used it in the past, doesn’t mean that God is going to use it in the future.
Because we were in this stage where we’re evaluating, is this a good model? Is this responsive to today? Blah, blah, blah. You know, like all those mildly existential questions, which I think are good to ask, and so I feel like strategic planning is the future and how do we do it? And how do we leverage and make a thing happen? But the spiritual discernment part just pauses and says, “God, we are willing to be used by you in this way, in the way that you have done in the past, but God, only if that’s what you want.” So I think that’s just a slightly different posture–the strategic planning has an element of you search and things are knowable, but the intercessory leadership has this category for both.
What is the invitation of God? A little bit of mystery and this recognition that we do not know the future. And so therefore, what are the truths that we rely on to help us discern next steps? That’s where I feel like the thing I’m trying to do is integrate these two types of leadership styles, this organizational strategic leadership style with this intercessory style, with an accent mark on paying attention to “Who are we becoming in the midst of this? And what is the effect or the fruitfulness of the work on the communities we’re a part of?”
[00:12:18] David de Leon: The context of your job right now is different maybe from, say, that conference that you were leading where you had a team of intercessors and then you had some of the strategic leadership. What might look like for you now?
When you refer to intercessory leadership, you’re not necessarily referring to a room or maybe you do have a group of people who are praying alongside you the whole time. But could you speak to how that’s translated into your current role?
[00:12:53] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Absolutely. Kind of like, how does that work out?
[00:12:55] David de Leon: Yeah.
[00:12:57] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I think it works out in very big ways intentionally, and then also it works out in very small ways. So a very small way that it happens is if I’m in a meeting, then I might try to take a pause in that meeting.
Usually if I’m leading a meeting or participating in a meeting, I’m tracking with the meeting and wanting to participate, I’m trying to think deep thoughts or whatever, right? But that practice in a small way means in the middle of a meeting, maybe especially when things get sort of intense to just take a little bit of a breath and a pause and go, God, is there something you want me to notice about what’s happening here?
[00:13:39] David de Leon: Yeah.
[00:13:39] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Sometimes I invite a spiritual director. In some of our programs, we have a spiritual director who just comes inside the room and does some of that listening, because it can be hard to facilitate a conversation or fully participate in one. And also, just making a space for that “Okay, let’s pause and listen.” So I’d say on a small everyday way, the other thing that sometimes happens for me is sometimes I’m doing the work of the organization, budgets, expense reports, you know, sort of this administrative stuff. And it doesn’t feel to me very clear that this is an invitation from God.
I’m for being formed in some way, but one of the things that I found really helpful is when my spiritual director says, “If God is growing something for you in one area of your life, it’s actually being grown in all the areas.” So I just go to another area of my life, “Oh, there’s this thing that’s happening in my family life, and I’m pressing into trying to believe in hope or trying to believe in honesty and, you know, something.”
And so I try to just bring that back into this thing that feels pretty far away from a spiritual formation moment. So I’d say those kinds of things of using cues from places that feel more overtly spiritual, or it feels like a place where God’s invitation feels a little bit more clear, using it to apply to areas that feel kind of stretching or remote.
In a bigger sense, CSA just recently closed out this multiple months-long planning process for a pretty huge initiative and project, and one of the things that was just really helpful for me was beginning to recognize the places that God brought me or our team that were markers for us to remember who we were, who we were about, and God’s invitation to us as we design something for the future. Trying to stay true to this has been the invitation God has for Christians for Social Action to be an organization that is to theologically reflective and strategically action oriented. Okay. What does that mean? And how do we keep our feet?
So the image I had through that months-long planning process was “God, where are you putting our feet? And how do we start from there?” So I guess that was a little bit of the question of the practice prompt through this longer thing and trying to call our team back. Okay. What is it that God has always asked us to do?
And then what does it mean applied to this? So I think trying to introduce a posture of listening and discernment and intercession, even in the midst of something that felt very vision, mission, proposed strategy. Just to make that more of a practice.
[00:16:48] David de Leon: Even in the example that you just gave you are integrating your spirituality into your leadership in itself, right?
[00:16:58] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: mm hmm.
[00:16:59] David de Leon: How I’ve tended to hear about leadership development, especially in Christian spaces in the past, has been “Well, a person has their own sort of personal spiritual formation, and it’s pretty personal. It’s pretty private. Right? And as long as that’s intact, then that is enough for them to lead the way that they need to lead.”
Right? But it’s still a privatized sense of spirituality, whereas it feels like what you’re saying is you are very intentional about bringing that spirituality into the leadership itself. It isn’t just your personal spirituality, so that Nikki shouldn’t show up and be a good leader. It’s “Hey, God’s been pressing me to think about this recently, personally, in various areas of my life. What would it look like as a team to be thinking about this as well?” There’s an integration of the spirituality into the leadership dynamic itself. And I’m curious, if someone were preparing for a leadership or a management role, especially in a Christian justice organization, or even just any sort of spiritual community, having never been in one before, what sort of advice might you give them, to infuse this sort of spiritual leadership into their roles?
[00:18:22] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Just to go back to what you were saying, some of how I would describe that dynamic that is pretty common is this kind of fueling, “Fuel me up so that I can pour out.” I think there is something about bringing the wholeness of yourself to your leadership, both the good and the bad.
I’m trying to push against but also create spaces for people to bring the fullness of themselves. With the caveat that there are some things that should be engaged with, with professionals and in private settings so that we love your fabulous full self. And, you know, with some level of discernment! The advice that I would give is that people lean into a vision of the scope of leadership they one day hope to have, or a space, or, or maybe there’s somebody that they sort of that’s the way I want to show up in the world and the sort of fruitfulness I want to have with my life, you know, or that’s the contribution I want to make. And I think one of the things that was an early conviction for me, early on, was that it’s important to take care of some of the small things while they’re small.
[00:19:40] David de Leon: Hmm.
[00:19:40] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So whether that’s practices of having healthy relationships with people who are strangers and people who are close to you and working on some of that, some emotional resiliency and healthiness, I’m going deep with God in some simple everyday practices. And then maybe also trying to go deeper with God in some spiritual practices that are stretching for you.
So the picture that I have regarding your question is: I used to live in the Bay Area. And the church that I was attending had been renting a building and was looking to buy Jerry Brown, a former governor of California, had a big property in Oakland that we were looking at.
It was his house, but he had sort of turned it into this spiritual center, so a bunch of people lived there, and I think it was maybe a Buddhist practice place or something like that, but it was fun. Originally a home. It had a big enough space for our church services, but as we did the due diligence on the property, we found that the foundation was not strong enough to hold the number of people that [we needed it to]. And that is the picture I have for leadership: when you have the time, maybe when the stakes are lower, those are the times to build in your spiritual foundation.
That’s the opportunity to go deep. That’s the opportunity to go deeper into into Scriptures, to go deeper in your friendship with God, to have a couple of spiritual practices that both give you life and also ones that are like, “Oh, this one is really not working for me.” Half-day prayer retreat, try silent retreat, try Ignatian spiritual exercises, try journaling, maybe starting to form a small community of people that you meet with regularly or semi-regularly. But one of the things that I see trips people up is where their scope of leadership expands fast before they actually have the foundation to handle the pressure, the demands, or what is required in that moment.
So the advice that I would give is try not to think of it as “Well, what am I doing? Why isn’t anything happening?” but rather “Oh. This is my going deep time, and what are one or two things that I want to go deep on to build a good foundation for my future leadership?”
[00:22:11] David de Leon: Amazing. Nikki Toyama-Szeto, thank you so much for being on that side of the microphone of 20 Minute Takes.
[00:22:20] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Thanks, David, for having me.
[00:22:21] David de Leon: You’re welcome. This will not be the last time that we chat. I think there’s so much more to learn from you, your wisdom, your experience. So thank you again for sharing that generously with us today.
[00:22:33] Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Great. Thank you, David.
[00:22:40] David de Leon: 20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. This episode was edited, produced, and hosted by me, David de Leon. Music is by Andre Henry. You can find out more about our work at ChristiansforSocialAction.org
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